What's the Fascination with Hokkaido? Seeking the Road Less Travelled
In a hungover state, Adam attempts to round off his time in Japan. He spent two weeks travelling around Hokkaido, Japan's northernmost and largest prefecture. But what's his fascination with Hokkaido? Join in the fruitful conversation, as we get well and truly distracted. This may be a better week than most to join our Patreon community!
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TIMESTAMPS:
00:06 - Intro
01:27 - Drunken train travel mistake
05:30 - Snazzy shirts and forgotten wardrobes
07:44 - British Columbia wildfires
15:08 - Psycho-geography & location attraction
20:47 - Hokkaido: Sapporo city, vineyards, whisky and hot pools
25:47 - Hakodate Reunion
32:41 - The danger of travel influencers
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Welcome to Tripology
Alun:
[0:02] Hello and welcome to this episode of Tropology. It's the only backpacking show in the whole world where two best friends who reside in different locations get each other up online and talk about travel. I'm Alan. I'm here with the ever hungover Adam.
Adam:
[0:22] You guessed it mate. You can probably tell from my husky voice and my, sluggish demeanour that I went on the uh the old hiss last night on the booze i'm in the uk uh, you can tell from my speedy wi-fi that i'm back in the uk visiting family and i was with some very old friends last night we've known each other since we were 11 years old and there happened to be a nice little shindig in a local town local market town with some beers and some live music, and i got so carried away i did a travel thing that i've only ever done once in my life it was a big mistake can you guess what it.
Alun:
[0:56] Was uh got on a tabletop and showed off your passport.
Adam:
[1:02] No no you think i've done that once before what it's like a i know.
Alun:
[1:06] You've done it once before saucy.
Adam:
[1:08] Look how strong my passport is that what you're yeah i'm in the uk um i wonder if you've done this it doesn't sound like the sort of thing you would of course you would do this because you have vehicular somnambulism Yeah.
Alun:
vehicle with wheels.
[1:21] Yeah, of course, for our new listeners, vehicular subnambulism is when I can't stay awake in any
Adam:
[1:29] Exactly, so I was on a train late at night, circa 11.15, on the way back to my dad's house, so this is now the new Tripology studio for the time being, and I was charging my phone, is the last thing I remember, and I only had to go embarrassingly one stop on the train, And I woke up in a blind panic, having realized that I'd nodded off and then ran to the doors. I could see the, you know, in the UK and probably every other country, the name of the station is written on signs on the platform. And I could see that I was at the correct station. So I was there pressing the button, waiting for the door to open. And then all of a sudden the wheels start rolling and I hear that of the train and we departed again. And the next stop was another 20 minutes away.
Alun:
[2:14] And it was a wheeled train.
Adam:
[2:16] A couple of wheels. i think is that what the bottom of a train wheels on the.
Alun:
[2:20] Not sure about that i don't think so i think it goes on tracks doesn't it maybe there's some like rollers but i'm not a train engineer like how you used to dress as.
Adam:
[2:29] Um i've still got that hat um.
Alun:
[2:31] Yeah adam used to dress up as a train engineer to try and uh i don't know entice people into his life i suppose.
Adam:
[2:37] With an interest in railways just so you'd tease me.
Alun:
[2:41] Mate that's um that's sad that that happened to you that's how i realized that's how i was first diagnosed with vehicular somnambulism was i regularly had to get a bus in adelaide just two stops and very frequently i would, uh land sort of five stops away from my intended location so i know all too well the feeling of you know getting on with a commitment to just being on for a short time but the little sleepy fairy, casts around your head and you drift.
Adam:
[3:10] Off i think that might be the issue it's almost like a don't touch the wet paint kind of thing you think oh it's only two stops just whatever you do do not fall asleep and maybe it's that mentality that ends up um, and you're nodding off unfortunately so it was a bit of a shit show after that i i got off the train at the next stop, and then uh had to wait 15 minutes for the next train going in the other direction and then because it was so late there were no cabs or anything to get me back so I had to walk about one and a half miles probably all the way to my dad's house in the pitch black and let me tell you, I was more drunk than I've been in a very long time.
Alun:
[3:47] Well, in the grand scheme of things, mate, I don't think you have to worry so much. And I don't think you'll be getting a vehicular somnambulism diagnosis anytime soon. I know the benefits are great, but I don't think you can go and get them from your GP because let's face it, symptomatically, you were drunk. So you were intoxicated as an exogenous substance. And here were some of the things that I racked up before I started to look at myself and be like, I think this is actually an issue. I not only used to regularly miss my stop on the bus but i once fell asleep on the back of a moving motorcycle and the, third and final thing which actually is a problem is i once fell asleep at a red light whilst driving a car.
Adam:
[4:35] But hang on then it's not even moving it's stationary i.
Alun:
[4:39] Well, no, I dropped my brother off at an airport in Canada. I drove the car, stopped, braked, the light turned red, and I awoke to honking behind me to indicate that the light had subsequently gone green, as lights tend to do.
Adam:
[4:56] Yeah.
Alun:
[4:56] And I was not just like I drifted off, I'd fallen asleep.
Adam:
[5:01] Why, though? It had been a long drive to the airport.
Alun:
[5:04] I had.
Adam:
[5:05] You were drunk.
Alun:
[5:06] No.
Adam:
[5:06] I'm sure.
Alun:
[5:07] No, no, I was, no. this is another thing i would never i've never even get a boss.
Adam:
[5:12] Drunk so i've been.
Alun:
[5:14] Sober all these times.
Adam:
[5:16] Um my god okay i've never done that i've never done that i have definitely felt tired you know the heavy eyelids i've had those while i've been driving but usually i open the window i've been diagnosed.
Alun:
[5:26] With them as.
Adam:
[5:27] Well heavy eyelids um i managed to get home in one piece though mate and woke up this morning feeling worse for wear a little bit fuzzy a bit dusty, as they say. But I knew that I was going to come in here and talk to you, so put this shirt on. If you're watching the video, you can see my very snazzy shirt.
Alun:
[5:47] Yeah, if you are watching the video, and you should, you will notice that Adam's wearing a shirt...
Alun:
[5:53] The it's one of those garments that i think sometimes people put on clothes in lieu of a personality, you know and people do this with facial hair as well sometimes you've noticed when you see people they've panicked and they've grown a really long beard because they're actually really boring, or you know sometimes they'll they'll wear like crazy fashionable like, bright colors and stuff because you know in reality they're actually probably a little bit of a prick so they've kind of dressed themselves to seem more approachable you're dressed like that but i happen to know they're actually quite nice and interesting so what's going on with that mate.
Adam:
[6:30] Thanks so much well having been home for the last uh not home for the last 19 months this is the first time that i am home in 19 months what i like to do is leave myself a wardrobe of clothes that i can come back to and what.
Alun:
[6:42] Happens when i when.
Adam:
[6:43] I've been away for so long is i completely forget that i've got clothes at my mum's house and then i go back in and my mum goes are you gonna sort those clothes out. I go, what clothes? She goes, the ones that you left in the wardrobe upstairs.
Alun:
[6:54] Oh, so it's like a graveyard of clothes that didn't make the travel cut.
Adam:
[6:57] You got it. You got it. And I go, oh my God.
Alun:
[6:59] Yes.
Adam:
amazing.
[7:00] And then I go, I've got all these shirts and these new pair of trainers I forgot I bought. And it's just
Alun:
[7:06] I've got the same wardrobe at my mum's house, mate. You go through there, it's like, yeah, it's got lambswool sweaters and like...
Adam:
[7:15] T-shirts.
[7:16] That i've had since i was 16 none of them make the cut for travel.
Adam:
[7:19] Well i.
Alun:
[7:20] Don't love a lambswool sweater from marks and spencers it's just because it's not practical to travel in.
Adam:
[7:24] Cashmere yeah i'll tell you one thing i won't be wearing at the moment in the uk it's uh a sweater because it's about 35 degrees today i believe it's ripping hot um and as we're talking about it being hot mate i would like fucking hell adam.
Alun:
[7:41] I know what you're gonna say but i mean the segue.
Adam:
[7:44] Well hang on you mentioned canada earlier and i was going to segue after that, but then you carried on talking so i thought i'm gonna have to work it in later on um but of course, uh our thoughts go out to the people of summerland and the area of the okanagan bc where i used to live alan where you visited me because there is a roaring wildfire going through there at the moment and i think some 12 000 residents have been displaced um, as it stands i think there's an of active evacuation order. Some people have left and then also maybe come back. But it is, I read on the internet this morning, the fire is currently about 19,000 hectares in size. And there are constantly 10 to 15 helicopters in the air, hundreds of firefighters trying to battle it. Loads of farms have been lost and obviously wildlife and stuff. I think the government have organized over a thousand hotel rooms in the local area for the residents. So a massive, massive job on their hands. And it's incredibly sad. Yeah.
Alun:
[8:39] Yeah, our tripological hearts go out to everyone affected by those fires. And I think it's a cool thing to touch on that, when you travel in the way that we do and visit loads of different places and live in those different places, you form soul bonds and connections with many different places around the world, all of which feel like a slice of home. And that means that, of course, your heart can break in multitudinous ways when people, or places or things or indeed wildlife or topographies or anything in those little slices of home become affected in such a negative way. And that's somewhere which is incredibly dear to you and indeed a slice of home for you. And by proxy, tropology, it's just, it's really sad to see that happen.
Adam:
[9:35] Yeah, it's quite curious, actually, the decision to live there, because I actively chose not to live there as a direct result of the fires. And I know that I'm not in the same position as many other people, some of whom were born in that region or have lived there for a very long time. They've obviously invested in property there and maybe their children go to school there. But it's called the Okanagan Valley and colloquially referred to as Smokanagan because of how many fires there are. It's probably at this point, on average, at least once every three years. It might even be once every two. There are big, big fires every single summer, that just affect the quality of life. and it's really difficult to explain to people what it's like to live in those conditions if you've got no concept of living in an environment where there are wildfires. I mean, the sky goes grey, the sun is blocked out, everything smells like smoke. It obviously affects farming and agriculture. People don't want to go outside. Ash is falling on the cars. It's awful it's really really awful um so i took the decision to not live there anymore, uh it's kind of like tornado valley the you know these weather systems they come and come through and destroy homes every single year i do sometimes think to myself why do these people choose to live there do they not.
Alun:
[10:57] Have another well i mean it's a luxury that you have of course where you can decide where to live i felt the same thing when i was in cebu and there was that type there was a typhoon there and subsequently a bunch of flooding and, and and like it was scary that typhoon but what a crazy thing in the grand scheme of things that i could just, get on a plane the next day and leave, and what an incredible privilege we have that we can do that and of course, many people living in those situations most people in cebu like they just had to stay and deal with whatever inefficient protocols their government put in place to offer some, levity to that situation and same same with you know the okanagan like people are just tied down there with their lives and their property and their families and the people they care for so.
Adam:
[11:50] Yeah i mean it's.
Alun:
[11:51] A sad thing indeed.
Adam:
[11:51] You do raise a good point the people of cebu or in the philippines uh maybe have less choiceand it's not as easy for them to to just up sticks and move somewhere else but i think the people in bc, do have more choice or it maybe is slightly easier they can be more mobile so that's why it's probably slightly more curious and we are very careful to talk about this sort of stuff luxury privilege and all thatkind of thing obviously we're fully aware of how fortunate we are to live the lives we do but it is also by design, we this is very deliberate from us we do like having the ability to move and live abroad, and have created our lives so that we can do that.
Alun:
[12:31] Yeah and of course sacrificed other things as a result of that. I think that's important. Like you talk about people in Cebu maybe have less choice financially, that's certainly true. But I think that you've also got to pay credence to the fact that emotionally and in terms of familial attachments or just like responsibilities, those things are unchanging regardless of whether you're in Cebu or indeed in the Okanagan. And it's those things that me and you don't have by design and deliberately. Like me and you don't have sentimental attachment to a place and we don't have property in a place that we like use as a repository for our things and we don't have um, close social bonds to a place and that's by design but a lot of people would regard that as our loss.
Adam:
[13:23] Yeah yeah just on that point actually two things um that are kind of in the same vein i it'd be interesting to see whether you also feel the, I, I, because I've also lived in multiple places, I kind of feel like a little piece of me is still living in those locations. I feel more attached to that place and continue to feel attached to that place than I would do. I know that that chapter of my life is over, but I still feel like a part of me is there. And it's the same with Hong Kong.
Alun:
[13:56] Yeah, that's what I was alluding to before when I was talking about like a slice, of you is in that place. And absolutely, like everywhere that I've lived. Has a little special place in my heart in perpetuity to the point where, you spend a year somewhere you really feel an allegiance to it you know there's a little piece of me that will always be in Siargao or in Edmonton or in, Auckland or Adelaide you know these are places that, a year is long enough so that you're not the same person coming out as you were going in, a year is long enough that you've got a couple more fine lines you've got a couple more thoughts you've got a couple of new perspectives a couple of new lifelong friends and things have changed like you've lost and gained connections with people in the time it takes to arrive and leave a place like that so of course like, you'll think back to those types of your life with some nostalgic experience, sense and and that's what um sort of missing a place is.
Adam:
[15:08] Yeah yeah the other thing that i seem to develop is sort of an affinity or, an attachment to a place before i've been there i feel drawn like there's an attraction some something's pulling me in and i had it with um, montreal for sure had it with lyon and and i also had it with sapporo which is the city uh kind of the capital, I guess, of the northernmost island in Japan, in Hokkaido. And it's funny, like a phenomena that happens where I kind of, I feel like I belong somewhere I've never been. And for that reason, you know, make an effort to try and go there at some point in the future.
Alun:
[15:52] So have you heard of something called psychogeography?
Adam:
[15:56] Never.
Alun:
[15:56] And what quality is it that you think makes you drawn to a place? Is it what you've heard about these pictures like what what is it about a place that makes you feel drawn to it.
Adam:
[16:07] Yeah it's well it must be a load of things in relation to the exposure i've had to it, i suppose so you know even like oaxaca in mexico i've never been there but i know that mezcal is produced there i know that the food the cuisine of oaxaca is really famous, i love mexico i love the culture there it's a country that i find very interesting in and i've always had a good time in so right There's maybe more things going on there. With Montreal, for example, it was the French-speaking aspect. It's also the most European city in North America, probably. It's in Canada, which is somewhere that I can live in perpetuity, so it's interesting for that reason. There's probably loads of things going on, but they're not exclusive to that one place.
Alun:
[16:53] Yeah but it's a reasonable it follows reasonably that like, if you're interested in a specific topic and that place is like the emanation of that topic or associated with that topic you'll have a reasonable intuition, that that place will cater to your interests well i mean a lot of people feel that way about tokyo where i am now right yeah it's like oh i am really interested in Mario and anime.
Alun:
[17:22] I think I might really like Tokyo. I wonder why, you know, like it's clear that Tokyo caters to those interests, but there's a thing called psychogeography. I'm not, I'm not so read up on it, but I think basically it's the idea that certain geographical topographical places carry inherent psychological characteristics, either because of just the way they are or, what they've been associated with since time immemorial that in some sense transcend what people try and do with it. So the idea would be like, for example, there's an area of a city which... Straight away becomes a hive of scum and villainy it becomes the place where people do the drugs there's prostitutes there's like, gangs and murders and embezzlements and all the bad stuff happens in that neighborhood and no matter how much the, is invested in trying to clear that neighborhood up even if it's like the slate's wiped clean and it's rebuilt from scratch yeah like it still attracts that sort of thing and perhaps it's because of an association or perhaps there's an inherent quality to that area.
Adam:
[18:40] How strange it's almost like it's reputation is is constant.
Alun:
[18:47] Irrespective yeah but potential potentially like and then you get into sort of the esoteric areas of is it because it has a reputation and people know and remember that or is it because of some, topographical quality of the place itself you know you can imagine that certain areas, will lend themselves to certain things you know you wouldn't say, just by their function like you wouldn't find a watering hole in the serengeti and be like oh this place has, it's inherently good for animals to socialize well it's a good place for animals to socialize because there's water because there's water there yeah so so potentially there's an aspect like that to it as well.
Adam:
[19:28] Yeah yeah i mean um yeah i'm sure you're right the the fascination with northern japan though maybe stems from it being less traveled than the rest of japan, and i don't know if i've ever wanted to live in kyoto or tokyo you know i've never fantasized about living there potentially Osaka, but always Sapporo, actually. It was somewhere that I thought if I go to Japan and stay there for six months and try and learn Japanese, I can imagine basing myself in Sapporo. And who knows, it might well be because of the famous beer. I wouldn't put it past me.
Alun:
[20:05] Yeah, interesting. But I can understand that as well because of who you are as a person. I think to some extent, you might always seek the road less traveled to some extent. I think that if you were looking at a place, I think it's top two most popular destinations you would always look at with a degree of scepticism about whether that's the place that you want to visit.
Adam:
[20:34] Yeah, you're probably right. And actually, on this occasion, because we did mention on last week's episode, we would round off my time in Japan. We do like to do things in chronological order here, and we are going back at least probably two months at this point.
Adam:
[20:47] Um i the stars aligned the travel stars aligned and this it's important to recognize moments like this because it doesn't happen that often but when i was in new zealand i was working for a winery, and i was speaking to the vineyard manager the lady i was working for and i told her that i had.
Adam:
[21:06] Had that i had plans to go to japan to come and stay with you, and she said oh well we had a lady from japan working here last season her and her family own a vineyard up in hokkaido, and i thought okay wow that's cool and she said yeah i can give you her contact details why don't you message her on instagram maybe she can give you some wine recommendations so you can sort of tell you about the wine regions and if you need sort of any help or advice or maybe even contacts i thought wow this is working out very well just bear in mind hokkaido is nowhere near tokyo so my plans at this time we're still to come and stay with you in Tokyo and then after that I mean we mentioned two weeks we mentioned a month there was you know we could fill the details in another time but the plan at this point was not to go to Hokkaido at all I had kind of earmarked the time with you to, to spend time with you in the city and then also work on the show together and when I spoke to Aya, the Japanese lady she said well if you want you can just come up to Hokkaido and stay with my family and do a few days work and we'll sort of house and feed you and i just thought, i could not ask for anything better that's exactly what i want to do.
Alun:
[22:15] Yeah. Well, that's great, man. Well, you're perfectly, but you're good at seizing those opportunities, aren't you?
Adam:
[22:21] Yeah, I've always said, actually, whenever I meet people and they say, oh, you're more than welcome to visit me whenever you're, you know, around, I say, do be careful, because I will.
Alun:
[22:29] I'm more than welcome.
Adam:
[22:31] Crikey. I'd be more than happy. What is more than happy? There's actually a famous comedian who does a bit about that. French guy.
Alun:
[22:38] More than happy is easy to, I mean, there's a lot of things more than happy, isn't there?
Adam:
[22:43] Uh elation is that more than yeah.
Alun:
[22:45] Absolutely i'm absolutely ecstatic i'm positive i'm having a sort of cosmic transcendental orgasm at the thought of engaging in an activity that is more than happy.
Adam:
[22:56] Yeah yeah it is um happiness.
Alun:
[22:58] Pales in comparison to that kind of ecstasy.
Adam:
[23:01] It's what we can aspire to be um but yeah so that was kind of the, the whole focus behind my trip after you mate I thought well this is great I can still work in the whole wine thing I can go up to Hokkaido I can visit Sapporo the city that I'd been fascinated by for such a long time there's a lot of onsens up there as well nice big onsen region with uh you know natural hot springs and that sort of stuff so, I took a little flight didn't I mate do you remember the day I left it was a sad day.
Alun:
[23:30] I remember the day you left yep you were hung over then as well and I dropped you off at the trained and now we had a big a hug that was a little bit long for outside a subway in japan, And that's not coming from me. That's coming from the letter I got from the Japanese officials who were watching.
Adam:
[23:48] Oh, yeah, it was socially unacceptable.
Alun:
[23:49] Public displays of affection outside the subway. But I remember it was emotional. And, yeah, but I've not really heard about your time after that hug.
Adam:
[23:59] I did a little train travel mistake on that journey as well, actually. I got off at a stop that was too early.
Alun:
[24:05] Crikey. Well, you're definitely not supposed to do that. And I'm sure I received letters about that
Adam:
[24:10] Yeah. Yeah, I got off at a stop that was too early, much like your public transport thing you spoke about in the Patreon section of last week's episode, link in the description. And I couldn't believe
Alun:
didn't you pay for it?
[24:22] It's a lazy plug, isn't it, that? Yeah, we do something much like a story you told last week. Why
Adam:
[24:30] It was, oh, it's been 200 episodes, Alan. It's nearly been four years, mate. Come on. If you don't know this by now, guys.
Alun:
[24:38] Guys, if you haven't subscribed to the Patreon at this point, I will say this If you've consumed, Four episodes of Tripology And you've not subscribed to the Patreon, I mean do yourself A favour for a couple of reasons One is like you're enjoying something If you go to a coffee shop The same coffee shop four times At a certain point you do yourself An effing favour and buy a loyalty card, If you listen to Tripology Four times, On some intrinsic level you're indicating that you enjoy what me and Adam have to say. Even if you're watching it ironically, even if you're like, well, the bearded one's a bit of a tit and the curly haired one's not half as bad. I mean, you're still listening. Go over to patreon we have interesting conversations at the end of the show every week the theme music plays and then we talk a whole lot of nonsense i sometimes go off in a big rant adam sometimes takes his top off it's insane over there and you're missing out on it it's the cost of a cantaloupe melon.
Adam:
[25:42] So the correct way to do it i'm so glad you're not hung out thanks yeah.
Alun:
[25:46] Anyway carry on with your story Hakodate Reunion and Izakayas
Adam:
[25:48] Um and yeah so i made my way up there i flew up to, where i i almost immediately contacted some old friends of the show danny and anastasia danny and i used to live together in melbourne in 2015 very briefly it was about five or six weeks in a hostel and we've kept in touch ever since uh i've also met up with him in luxembourg back in i believe it was kind of january 2024, and he happened to be on some huge world tour with his wife, like an extended honeymoon of sorts and they were doing like 11 or 12 months around the world and we were going to see each other in the Philippines, couldn't nail that down there was other talks about somewhere else in Asia and then we decided on Japan so it just all worked out so well literally a day either side we wouldn't have caught each other so we were incredibly lucky, we spent the evening walking around Hakodati Harbour, very famous for seafood, lots of amazing food there of course, I think uni is very famous that's sea urchin and scallops as well, And we just spent a lovely time catching up. I took them to an izakaya. I was doing all the ordering, mate. You would have been so proud. We were there getting on the beers, getting on the yakitori. You got pretty sick of yakitori after the first eight times that we had it in consecutive days.
Alun:
[27:07] Yeah, I find izakayas to be a bit of an intimidating experience for a number of reasons, and several of which I want to discuss with you in detail. And they're so derailing my opinions about izakayas that i think they can't possibly be uh appropriate for this episode so, i think maybe in the next episode of tropology i want to tell you all about, exactly what i think about izakayas in japan and so people can tune in next week for that um, but it's nice isn't it when you when you see someone who you've not seen in a long time yeah was it one of those things where you looked at them and they looked at you and they were like christ the years haven't been kind to us or was it one of those times where it's like nothing had changed.
Adam:
[27:50] Nothing had changed nothing had changed at all and you know dan and i we send voice messages back to each other every now and again and you know it might take us a few days or a few weeks to get, to get a response together but that's totally fine and i think when you meet people when you're traveling, you you never really lose that i feel like you probably connect in a way that you that you can't connect with people you went to school with or people you maybe meet at work it's because, you're obviously i know you've You said this actually at the very beginning of Tripology, I think you said words to this effect, that you have something in common. I think you were talking about La Paz.
Alun:
[28:28] I used La Paz as an example. The exact quote, and I've used it several times, is like, this is the way travel used to be, and what I fell in love with about travel, and what I think many of us felt when we were first travelling, is, By the very nature of the fact, when people are worried, like, am I going to make friends with this person? What if I don't find my tribe on the road? It's like, by the very nature, by the very fact that you've both ended up in a hostel in the past, you've got something in common with them.
Adam:
[29:04] Yeah, yeah.
Alun:
[29:06] And it very much felt like the case when I first started traveling, that everyone you met had the same kind of mental illness as you. Not you, Adam. Not as me. When I say you, I mean me. And when I say me, I mean both of us. And when I say both of us mean Tripology Podcast. Subscribe. But the fact is you were both sort of, you had that same thing. You both felt maddened and frustrated by the world as it were. And you both realized that you could seek something more effervescent and more lively and head off into the world. And by that same cascade of events, you found one another sitting, eating dulce de leche on toast in a hostel in South America. And that was a beautiful thing.
Adam:
[29:54] Yeah.
Alun:
[29:54] I will say, I think that experience is diluted in the modern age of travel. To put it politely. That's not to say it's not possible. That's not to say it's not possible to have that experience. But I think you have to look much harder for it. Because I think now, whereas it used to take a special kind of mental illness to propel you halfway across the world to an unknown hostel in La Paz, I think now ChatGPT can recommend that hostel to you. And I think that what the pandemic did was it made a lot of people en masse, realize that there was something more to life than sitting behind a computer screen. Which is a good thing.
Alun:
[30:44] And I think the advent of AI, for example, and the propagation of the internet has made it really easy for people to find the hidden gems. Not as hidden gems anymore, but as absolutely excavated so that the cool, harsh daylight is right upon those gems. Those gems have been revealed unto the world to the point where now they're not hidden at all. And so if you meet someone in a random hostel somewhere in a random city the chances are now that maybe you just did similar google searches.
Alun:
[31:25] So it's certainly possible to meet people who have something in common with you traveling but i think now you have to look harder for it now they might not be in the hostel now they might be, doing the work away or engaging in whatever niche activity really gets you going, because i'll say it again i've said it before and i'll say it a thousand times travel as an activity.
Alun:
[31:51] It's ethereal. It's a search engine. Saying that you love travel is like saying that you love the internet. It doesn't really mean anything. And travel, as a lot of people do it, just like, what should I do? Top five things to do in Bangkok. I'll do him. Top five things to do. I'm crossing the border of vietnam baby there's doom scrolling instagram it's like the doom scrolling of travel it's just doing the experiences i'll go to anchor what, i'll go to bangkok i'll go it's just you know why.
Adam:
[32:32] Well there's two things i would say to that just so we can sort of round off this episode on a low uh is that i think it's i think it's.
Adam:
[32:42] Um probably slightly more layered than it used to be shall we say because you are not going to meet the same type of travelers in pakistan and bangladesh that you would meet, in ko pp or ko tau in thailand right you could say oh i love backpacking i love thailand i love whatever but if you take a solo trip across central asia for example you're going to meet a specific type of person, and i even remember back to when we were in pakistan mate there was a spanish guy who's cycling his bike across asia or something super cool guy. He's the sort of guy that you might meet in India as well. He's the sort of guy you might meet, I don't know, in sort of Eastern Europe or something. These are the people that are going to have a certain type of experience.
Adam:
[33:25] Um, the other side of this, and this kind of touches on AI and the internet and stuff is content creation and Instagram and Tik TOK. And the problem I think that we have now is that a lot of, let's just say the sort of people who weren't traveling 10, 20 years ago, are kind of seeing themselves in some of the content creators who are now traveling. And we follow a lot of content creators and we follow them not just as people who are enthusiastic and passionate about travel but also as content creators either for inspiration or appreciation or support, there are some people out there who would consider themselves travel influencers or content creators within the context of travel and travel content who are content creators first and travelers second, they are not like us and the problem is when you start going around india and creating reels about how much it smells.
Adam:
[34:22] You're sending the wrong message it's misguided it's come from a bad intention, but there are people who watch that who are being influenced by that content, and those are the sorts of people that then see themselves in these sorts of people and i don't think they're going doing a good thing i would say that the reason why we chose a podcast is because it doesn't impact our experience of travel and we love telling stories about travel hopefully guiding and inspiring people in that way.
Alun:
[34:45] Oh and it's in inarguably less successful than uh an exposition or youtube channel would be as a result but that was the important thing is that we traveled the way we.
Adam:
[34:55] Wanted and.
Alun:
[34:55] That the podcast wouldn't ever affect it and i think that, I mean, I mean, you're, you're so right that now I wish I could say that travel for its own sake was, was a value.
Adam:
[35:13] Yeah.
Alun:
[35:15] Because almost to an extent, who am I? You know, when I first started traveling, I was traveling for, for its own sake. Like I just did it because I didn't know what else to do. And it seemed like a cool thing to do. So who the hell am I to deprive other young people of that same explorational experience i can't so i can't criticize the mindset where you're just like i just want to travel, but so many people have that mindset now so many it's no longer the niche fringe i mean it's always been popular right immensely popular it's always been a billions of dollar industry but, but now it's like it is just different now, now everyone's traveling for travel sake and documenting it as this like and it's this cyclical self-propagating process where it's like i'm just traveling, here's the pictures and videos of me i am a traveler influencing more people to pick it up and just do that same thing, and it's like what kind of journey, do those people need to go on to have the same sorts of realizations that both me and you have had I think whereas like that ultimately is vacuous, because travel for its own sake, is just empty.
Adam:
[36:39] Really it's just.
Alun:
[36:41] See yeah i mean it's it's it's what strolling instagram is to watching a movie, there's there has to be thought and intention and a search behind travel you have to be doing it, to further yourself or explore interests or, embolden and and expand your consciousness in some to some extent otherwise you're just on holiday like you'll just just say what it is you're on holiday you're relaxing you're you're taking snapshots which is which is fine but it's a different thing.
Adam:
[37:17] Yeah you know these content creators i've really got to be in my bonnet about some of them because i feel like they send the wrong message they're there for the wrong reasons it is bad intentions and their their channel or their instagram page or, the reels that they post on tiktok whatever it is they live and die by how many likes they get how many shares how many comments all this kind of thing so they're going into creating this content with that in mind they have to be, their priority is not to have the most authentic connected experience with the location they're in or the local people they're not necessarily thinking about their impact all they care about is their own, their own objective of being kind of an influencer or famous online and i think that a lot of the content is detrimental to the places that they go it's at the expense of the local people as opposed to celebrating them for why they're different or you know being coming at it from a positive angle so you do have to be a little bit careful and the problem is when you've got people back home either in europe or in north america australia new zealand whatever whoever's consuming this content, they then have a preconceived idea of places like india where of course it's easy to go viral if you've got you know in japan it's another one to make fun of what happened all the customs in japan but it's so cheap, it's so cheap and that's Not what travel's about at all.
Alun:
[38:33] I think it's like, it's lost so much of what I love about it, man. And in the same way, it's so difficult to not just appear as nostalgic for another era. But I think the same thing happens to everything. I think the same thing happened to music.
Adam:
[38:53] Music for sure.
Alun:
[38:54] Probably film, cinema. I think it happened before we came up and it's got even worse over time. But the reality is the music that was being made in the 60s and 70s was more authentic and real than the music that's being made now because it's being commercialized and.
Adam:
[39:11] It's formulaic got yeah exactly and the same happened.
Alun:
[39:15] In the film industry right is it's like they know what sells and and so they just spin that out again and again and again and and now with travel you're right it's just like, this is the kind of travel that keeps the economy going.
Adam:
[39:32] Yeah and maybe something else that people don't realize that the money that's being pumped into these content creators, you know that they're getting funded for for what either being sponsored by or advertising certain companies which means that those companies who are sponsoring them have to have a marketing budget so they're already going to be fairly decent sized companies, and they're commodifying things like backpacking trips and you can do three weeks in colombia and all this sort of stuff i mean, in all honesty would i recommend you spend four thousand dollars on three weeks in colombia and you've got to pay for your flights in and flights out and insurance on top of that no no i wouldn't so don't, your money can go so much further.
Adam:
[40:16] It's tough, man. It's tough to not sound like a kind of gatekeeper. We don't own travel. We don't own backpacking. We're fully aware of that. But I wish that the people that were promoting travel and backpacking who are online, who do have huge audiences and a lot of sway, I don't think they always realize the impact of the content they put out there. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe we've fallen victim to that kind of stuff in the past when we were trying a few things out. You know, it's important. little disclaimer that there are trends there are algorithms um you don't always know exactly what you want to do, but maybe it has to be a full circle thing maybe these content creators either they have just got the blinkers on and they've got no idea and they never will have any idea that what they're doing could be damaging to local communities, or maybe they will maybe in a couple of years or even in 10 years or 20 years whether they're successful or not they'll look back and go i don't know if i was completely proud of that actually the thing is mate that i've just realized is a lot of the younger content creators are coming into travel when social media already is really well established.
Adam:
[41:21] So some people are going away already knowing how to produce good content on Instagram with drones, with, you know, whatever, create vlogs. Whereas none of that existed really. Social media existed. There was still Facebook and Instagram when we first went traveling. But the job of a content creator I don't think was really a thing. Of course there were YouTubers and stuff. But now it just seems like, i don't know like it's a fairly attractive and lucrative career that a lot of people are happy to try out and whether they're just documenting their own stuff and then they become famous or whether they go in with an objective to try and be a content creator it's just a very different landscape nowadays.
Alun:
[42:00] Yeah it's almost become an obligatory thing that people like try their hand at when they are in the same breath as deciding that they'd like to go traveling that it's kind of like how can i commodify, that and i think that perhaps that shouldn't be the first thought but Adam, I mean, that was a fruitful conversation. I'm excited to hear more about what you did in Hokkaido and up north, but we'll have to leave that for the Patreon section. I mean, we have to commodify this little thing, don't we? Everyone's got to commodify something. We'll see you all there. Subscribe, and I'm looking forward to having that conversation with you over there.
Adam:
[42:36] Cheers, guys. Let us know your thoughts. All the best. Bye-bye.
