Scammed in Varanasi: India's Spiritual Capital - Part 1
Adam was scammed in Varanasi, India’s spiritual capital, in one of the most confronting ways imaginable: criminals exploiting the cremations and funerals of Hindu families to pressure tourists into donating money. The original conversation was recorded before Adam knew he had been scammed. What follows is a raw, vulnerable and sensitive conversation about his experience witnessing one of Hinduism’s most significant practices — and the difficult questions it raised about death, religion, respect and tourism.
Please be advised: some listeners may find this episode distressing.
Support the show and access the Lost & Found section, as Adam relives an awkward encounter with a shop assistant who was doing anything but playing it cool...
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00:00 - Intro: The Varanasi Story
04:31 - The Varanasi Firewood Scam Explained
11:31 - What Do Tourists Actually Know About Varanasi?
14:00 - Why Hindus Come to Varanasi to Die
16:37 - Witnessing Cremations on the Ganges
18:54 - Enter the 'Volunteer Guide’
24:16 - Burning Is Learning: Should Tourists Watch Cremations?
29:42 - Inside the Cremation Rooftop... To Be Continued
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Welcome to Tripology
Alun:
[0:02] Hello and welcome to this episode of Tripology. It's the only backpacking podcast in the world where we take conversations that we had last week and add them to this week's show with brand new context. That's right. I'm Alan and I'm here with the ever over-trusting Adam.
Adam:
[0:25] Back for another week guys. Thank you ever so much. I do just want to take the opportunity actually to say thank you so much for all the love in Patreon. That's been very, very nice indeed. We've had a number of new subscribers this week, so look forward to seeing more of you over there.
Alun:
[0:38] What that tells me, mate, is that everyone over on Patreon is a bit of a sauce pot, because I teased last week that I was going to talk about Japanese pornography. We've had ever so many people signing up. Thanks!
Adam:
[0:49] Who wouldn't want to hear about that, and we certainly hope that the people that do have access to that content have thoroughly enjoyed it. I'm sure it was worth it for the cost of what is a bowl of rice or a pen or a pineapple or whatever it is you normally say. But the episode we've got today is a bit of a strange one. It's going to be sensitive, I think. It's going to be a little bit tricky, but we are going to take a lot of care when we talk about it. And then the Patreon section is another story from a place I've recently been to, Varanasi, where a girl about half my age was left feeling very disappointed.
Alun:
[1:23] Crikey. Well, I mean, definitely sign up to hear about that.
Alun:
[1:28] For only the price of 17 cashew nuts, you can get over there to Patreon and have a listen. This is the first time ever we're, anthropology, we're revisiting an episode that we previously said, we're not going to post it. And here's for why. Last week me and you sat down to have a conversation about ever such a spiritual experience that you had in Varanasi, during the conversation you were describing this experience to me I was listening to your experience and as we were having that conversation I had an unshakable feeling that perhaps, what you were experiencing was some kind of scam.
Adam:
[2:12] Yeah and I do just want to go on record saying that i even at the time that this was happening to me or i was experiencing what you guys are about to hear, i did think it was a scam or i certainly had my suspicions because it felt very scam like but, when you understand the context if you try if you can there's just no way you're going to be able to relate unless you've seen something similar with your own eyes which I very much doubt you have, but, it does make thinking clearly very, very difficult, almost impossible, I would have said.
Alun:
[2:47] Yeah, obviously, that's the nature of a scam, particularly one that pulls on the old heartstrings. But we had this sense while I was listening, I was like, Oh, God, that doesn't feel right. And then as soon as the episode finished, I took to Google and immediately typed in your experience. And it was revealed to me that this kind of scam isn't only common, it's one of the oldest, most ubiquitous scams going. It's known as the Varanasi firewood scam, and my goodness does it fell a lot of people now it would have been remiss of us for us just to post that conversation without that context so I thought let's halt production on the episode hold on halt the printing presses guys we want to do a little intro where we tell you guys this context so that you can avoid the same, foible as a dam if you go to
Varanasi.
Adam:
[3:44] Yeah you know I was I wasn't none the wiser and when you hear the story I'm sure you can hear it in my voice or you know maybe when you're listening to this you'll think yeah I mean I can understand, that there were signs there or you maybe you can understand why why I was duped why I had the wall pulled over my eyes and, I don't want to give too much away because it was as I mentioned quite an important moment in my life I think you know it was kind of a transformative experience and something that was unlike anything I'd witnessed ever before, but the firewood scam it's funny hindsight isn't it hindsight's almost like perfect vision it's 2020 vision because people say it's 2020 yeah it's all this different phrase that people say sometimes 2020.
Adam:
[4:28] But what I will do guys is I will just read out a couple of things just to give
Adam:
[4:31] you a little bit of context and background. This is what Alan would have found upon Googling and had I known that I was going to end up along the banks of the Ganges at around 8 o'clock at night and potentially be, faced with this kind of thing ceremony that went on in the way it did i would have googled beforehand i would imagine, that should be your takeaway but alan very promptly googled firewood scam varanasi and this is what he found the firewood donation scam is one of the most common and aggressive tourist traps in varanasi it primarily targets foreigners and domestic tourists visiting the historic burning guards specifically manikhanika guard which is the main cremation ground and harishandra gart as well how does the scam work number one the friendly guide approach as you approach the garts an english-speaking man will strike up conversation he will immediately assure you that he does not want any money and only wants to explain the local culture and history my god it's almost like i wrote it myself number two the tour and explanation he will guide you to a special viewing platform often a balcony or rooftop of a nearby building overlooking the funeral pyres along the way he or a second worker will share detailed facts about how the cremation process requires 300 to 400 kilograms of wood per body. I was told it was 80 kilograms.
Adam:
[5:49] Number three, the emotional guilt trip. The tone shifts quickly. They will point out a grieving family, claim the family is poor, and explain that they cannot afford the expensive wood required to complete the ritual. And then the hard sell comes in. They will ask you to buy a few kilograms of wood to make a cash donation. If you offer a small amount, they will look at you with hostility, shame for being cheap, or aggressively pressure you to give thousands of rupees, sometimes quoting inflated prices like 950 rupees per kilo, when it actually costs a fraction of that. And then it goes on to say the reality is that it is completely fake these individuals have absolutely no affiliation with the families the priests or the funeral process.
Alun:
[6:28] Okay well i think that's enough context you guys get it it's an old scammeroo baby, time to listen to adam's story and tale from varanasi and we'll meet you back at the end of the episode to discuss what went wrong enjoy this is a conversation from last week.
Adam:
[6:47] You've asked what i'm doing here so because i look up to you and i'm always, sort of admiring your your knowledge and interest and passion in religion, i thought maybe i should go to rishikesh and varanasi i didn't know at the time i don't think you've been to rishikesh but, i had about four or five days to play with and i was in the region. So I decided to go to Varanasi to witness... I mean, look, I hold my hands up. The only thing I knew about Varanasi up until this point was that it's where lots of Hindus come to burn their dead relatives. Along the river banks of the Ganges.
Alun:
[7:29] Yeah, you and every other white person who goes to Varanasi does so because they've heard that it's a vaguely spiritual place and cremations happen there. Lots of people, when I was in Varanasi, I observed, they went over there with their, dreadlocks and elephant pants and remarked things like, wow, my goodness, there's ever such a great energy here, a palpable feeling of Hindu divinity running through the course of Varanasi. is that what you've experienced.
Adam:
[7:58] No quite the opposite i mean in in rishikesh i would say yes there is kind of a calm a peacefulness about it a stillness, the season is kind of the end of the rainy season monsoon so the ganges the ganga is really really high no one almost no one is swimming in it some people are bathing along the edge but it's very very, um the flow is very fast it's very dangerous it's obviously very brown and polluted and all tourist boats have stopped you know the government or local council have said that no tourist boats are allowed on the banks of the ganges so, it is important to sort of bear that in mind, but in terms of the energy the feel of varanasi i will go on record as saying, out of all the cities i've been to potentially in my entire life certainly in india, it feels the most dirty and the most chaotic and the people who are here are the most aggressive i would say and you know the sorts of sales people or business people rickshaw drivers shop owners that are likely to approach you even people who, they are spiritual and they are hindus i can see by the way they're dressed, but they still will come up to you quite aggressively and ask for palm readings or uh ask for palm readings.
Alun:
[9:14] What do you say.
Adam:
[9:15] Oh sorry.
Alun:
[9:15] I'm not trained.
Adam:
[9:19] I've come here to learn give me two weeks uh no no i mean you know there's there's obviously a hunger for sort of tourists money here, and i mean what what my perception of varanasi is or my experience maybe will be echoed by other backpackers i know it obviously holds far more importance, than that here we go it's always important when you are somewhere that you might not take a liking to and it's not to say that i don't like varanasi because i've had a couple of experiences in this city that, that i will remember for the rest of my life and it's maybe as a result of that the most important place i've visited in india, um but what i was going to go on to say was that you know varanasi is not trying to impress me, anywhere you go that you don't like it's not it's not trying to win fans it's just one of the most ancient cities in the world i think it's the oldest or one of the oldest, most continuously inhabited cities on earth. And it's obviously significant within Hinduism as well. So that aside... As kind of a visitor to the city it is noticeably more dirty than many other places i've been and as i said more.
Alun:
[10:28] Chaotic and.
Adam:
[10:29] You just get approached all the time i can't walk down the street 10 steps without a few people coming up to me and just saying oh where are you going sir oh can i help oh would you like to come into my shop oh can you come into my restaurant oh can you i'm just like guys i don't need a bike taxi i'm just.
Alun:
[10:42] Walking around a little bit though mate because i think obviously like the reason why there's so many predatory people trying to sell stuff is because there's people there who want to buy that stuff and that's because Varanasi is a very popular place, for people to travel to because it's got this reputation as being the spiritual capital of India now, you said that you didn't know much about why that is really before you arrived you just had a sense that it was that I feel like almost everyone I met in Varanasi was there because they'd heard it was the spiritual capital, um what percentage of travelers who go there do you think really know what Varanasi is all about why it is what it is and uh and make an effort to learn about it.
Adam:
[11:31] Very few. I mean, I wouldn't be able to pluck a number out of the air, but I was in a temple yesterday and I met a young German girl and her grandmother. So her husband, the older lady's husband, is Indian or was Indian. He unfortunately passed away earlier this year. And that's the reason why they were in Varanasi. So I would imagine that they certainly have an idea. I've seen quite a lot of mother-daughter combos, actually. It's been really refreshing because It's not an easy place to travel by any means. But other than that, I mean, it's just groups of young guys, lots of couples. I am in the low season. So, you know, the guest house and restaurants are empty. There's really not that many white sort of Western tourists around. I've seen some Japanese people, actually, and some Chinese tourists. But I wouldn't be surprised if they'd done as much reading as me, which is very little. I'm kind of inspired by your knowledge and then thought I would just learn more about it while I'm here.
Alun:
[12:30] Yeah, so obviously those people are ripe for buying stuff off people, which is why the local populace has no doubt learned to be a little more aggressive with their sales pitches for goods and services.
Alun:
[12:43] Let me give the listeners the lowdown on what's going on over there in Varanasi. It's the spiritual capital of India. I was there because there's a place there called Sarnath, just a little short, maybe 45 minutes away from Varanasi. It's where the Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama, taught his first sermon and is therefore one of four significant pilgrimage sites of Buddhism. I was on this little quest to go to each of the pilgrimage sites. Don't identify as a Buddhist, but I was just curious. So I went to all of them. For the Hindus though, however Varanasi is Crikey, Is Varanasi the birthplace of Krishna, mate?
Adam:
[13:29] Uh, I don't know. I mean, it's called the City of Shiva.
Alun:
[13:32] Let me just look it up really quickly.
Adam:
[13:35] But you'll be impressed. I'll just ad-lib for a little bit.
Alun:
[13:37] No, because I want a clean cut point. Don't ad-lib. Oh. Sorry.
Adam:
[13:45] I think that would have been fine.
Alun:
[13:46] Someone else said, um...
Adam:
[13:48] Because now the motorbike sounds aren't going to match up either.
Alun:
[13:51] No, no. Yeah, I knew it wasn't. Some ignorant person told me it wasn't. I was like, are you sure? Um...
Alun:
[14:00] But for the hindus varanasi is one of very very few places i think there's only seven in the whole of india where if you're chromated there, you go straight to moksha which is like the hindu nirvana this idea that if you want to get there you want to get to this place of spiritual divinity Normally you have to go through endless cycles of reincarnation to clear your karmic debt and do all that. Spiritual alignment or you can get cremated at varanasi and if you do it's like taking a big shortcut it's like saying praise jesus as the plane goes down or um, yeah just renouncing all your sin basically get burned at varanasi and you're done with the rebirths your karmic debts cleared you've won the spiritual lottery.
Adam:
[14:56] And i mean you can see it in the streets there are lots of spiritual people here lots of hindus here of course, uh i was riding through on a motorbike through a muslim area earlier today as well it's funny you mentioned sarnath because i went there today on your recommendation it was very nice did you like it got myself yeah yeah i enjoyed it i mean it was nice walking around somewhere that wasn't varanasi it meant slightly less to me than it does to you but it was a really pleasant day as well and, and then yeah regarding the sort of people you see in the streets i mean there are uh, lots of lots of hindus walking around groups of hindus who come here lots of people sort of taking part in ceremonies and there's always you know in the evening along the banks of the river the ghats i've got pujas or artis every night it seems, so just as a spectacle if you want to come here and be a part of that and witness it as a tourist i do think it's worth coming here it's it's great to see it's very colorful city, but one of the reasons people come here and I guess this could be described as dark tourism I was interested in learning of course as well is these cremations, these funerals that happen along the banks and as I mentioned earlier, the river is so high at the moment that it's actually gone.
Adam:
down.
[16:15] Or swallowed but it's come up so high that the guards are no longer there the steps don't exist i imagine when you were here you probably watched these cremations on steps um yeah i also went
Alun:
[16:28] Some steps in order to get into the ganges to bathe myself a act which i can
Alun:
[16:33] only describe as slightly grotesque.
Adam:
[16:37] Yeah but one of famously one of the most polluted rivers on earth uh but people drink it so, what what i'm going to say mate is that the steps that you would have walked down are no no longer accessible or aren't accessible at the moment probably for another month because the river is so high so it's coming the river's coming right up into the city, you walk out onto what was you know probably the first step and then the water's already there and the boats are right there and i'll um, i think i've taken a couple of photos of the river flowing and just how kind of forceful and aggressive it is but no one's not i own people are like bathing on the edge but no one's really getting in it and for that reason the cremations are not happening on the steps where they usually would they're actually happening up on a rooftop which, is uh it's manika manika nika which is the name of the famous gar the most famous where most of them happen, and i went there last night to watch some of these these cremations and, i mean i can't think of an experience in recent memory that has moved me in the way that that one did.
Alun:
[17:45] Is it the first time you've witnessed a cremation.
Adam:
[17:49] Uh yes okay for me it was the second time.
Alun:
[17:52] Because i'd seen a similar thing in nepal.
Adam:
[17:57] Oh really interesting talk us through it were there similarities parallels between the two.
Alun:
[18:01] Yeah and i found the one in nepal more visceral perhaps because it was the first one i
experienced.
Adam:
[18:09] Yeah yeah okay.
Alun:
[18:10] I think with live cremations your first is always your most memorable live like live as in i didn't watch a pre-recorded cremation.
Adam:
[18:21] Oh right the person wasn't alive.
Alun:
[18:23] Yeah no um good but yeah i remember it being quite profound it's not um macabre in the sense that you see anything, right? Like, you don't see a human being burning. You see burial robes, right? You see...
Adam:
[18:43] It's different from my experience.
Alun:
[18:45] Did you see flesh.
Adam:
[18:47] Oh yeah really yeah yeah yeah i mean i can tell you the story from start to finish.
Alun:
[18:52] Yeah okay do yeah.
Adam:
[18:54] So i was at one of these arties the ceremony just down by uh, where i'm staying in the old town one of these other famous cars and there was a guy there who was trying to sell me some souvenirs and he said oh tonight you should go to Manikarnika because there's going to be a cremation of about 400, 300 to 400 bodies. And I was like, my God, that sounds like a lot.
Adam:
[19:21] And I thought it was, you know, something, something to witness for sure. So he encouraged me to go down there. I ended up going down there about eight o'clock, which was when he told me to get there. Turns out there were nowhere near that many bodies. I don't know if he gave me the wrong information, if I was at the wrong spot, if he was talking about a different day he said there was a big festival today i spoke to my motorbike driver he told me that wasn't true so who knows what was going on anyway, um long story short i ended up being there around eight o'clock and like i said the river is so high at the moment that even the walk down is covered in water you walk down this long kind of corridor, through the old town lovely kind of old streets with old architecture and stuff very very busy and the the water kind of cuts the path off and then on the right hand side you've got some steps that go up to this temple area where lots of people are having their head shaved and that's because they are, I'll explain this gentleman called Carew.
Adam:
[20:16] Started talking to me in the crowd and you know what it's like me i mean i've spent eight months in india at this point i've been here three times i think it's about eight or nine months i've been here in total something along those lines and especially in places like varanasi i, wouldn't say i'm on high alert but when i'm just walking reactive, well when i'm walking from one place to another i've just got quite a low, i wouldn't say low level of low tolerance i mean quite efficient in my answers so when someone comes up to me approaches me and says oh hello sir i just say no thank you and i just keep walking yeah you have to be like that yeah i remain polite and you know courteous but, you know when it happens once you got 10 minutes to have a chat with them when it happens a hundred times a day for eight months you know you just want to just let me get where i'm going please i'm not interested thank you.
Alun:
[21:06] You go to what my natural response is even if i i'm just going about my day normally.
Adam:
[21:12] Yeah yeah you get worn down to.
Alun:
[21:14] It i start at that level.
Adam:
[21:17] I should wear these headphones when i'm walking about but, i this guy started chatting to me into the in the crowd and i was watching, people bathe in the ganges they also have these big baskets where they take, the ashes and sort of wash the ashes looking for jewelry because the families who burn their relatives there they don't necessarily take the jewelry so the people who work sort of stoking the fires and preparing the fires and all that sort of stuff they will take the ashes and then wash them in the ganges and almost pan for gold that's one of the most.
Alun:
[21:47] Morbid horrible things i've ever heard in my life.
Adam:
[21:51] Uh yeah i mean there's also dogs running around on the fires eating the flesh of the burning humans.
Alun:
[21:56] And the stuff i saw last night.
Adam:
[21:58] The stuff i saw last night will change your life.
Alun:
[22:00] But i didn't see any of that when i was there yeah yeah for me it was quite a sedate like there was grieving families i actually think that there needs to be a conversation around this because you know we're talking about it about whether whether we think it's, any kind of right to go and watch these things. Lots of people do in Baronessie, it's like the thing to see, but the reality is I think it's kind of, uncomfortable i i always think like you know should you really.
Adam:
[22:33] Well yeah well no it's good that we're having this conversation because those were all the conversations that were happening in my head, because i i was watching all this happen and then this guy caro started talking to me in fantastic english he had a lanyard around his neck and i thought here we go he said oh you know this is what's happening now this is what's happening now is it your first time if you want i can take you up there and, i just knew that he was angling for some money he was some sort of guide or his english was far far too good he was incredibly eloquent and um, you know saying all the right things and and uh it was almost like he was answering questions he knew i had already, so he said look why don't we go up there i'll take you up there i said no it's fine i'm just going to watch from here and he said don't you think the respectful thing to do is to is to watch to go and learn, and i said oh actually no i i think the respectful thing to do is to just watch from a distance because i couldn't see anything happening at this point yeah that was my perspective.
Alun:
[23:30] As well i tried to make.
Adam:
[23:31] Myself as.
Alun:
[23:32] Small as possible.
Adam:
[23:34] Everything was up on a rooftop even though i could see the melee down below and you know people having their heads prepared and, um actually i was there earlier in the day and i was filming some guys who were in the ganges and they were doing this like panning thing i was later told actually to put my phone away, but just before i could do that i was taking a video or, photo or something and someone knocked my foot almost knocked my phone out my hand and i turned around almost a tut and it was a dead body being carried down on a stretcher like the front guy had knocked my arm and nearly knocked my phone out my hand but not in.
Alun:
[24:10] Burial cladding not not in more not burial cladding but not in robes not in.
Adam:
[24:16] Yeah yeah yeah when they're getting carried down when they're getting carried down they're wearing some sort of decorative cloth or cladding as you've called it and they're sort of strapped to this stretcher this wooden plank if you like being carried by four or five guys um.
Adam:
[24:29] And so when i was talking to this guy anyway caro he said, i said i actually think the respectful thing to do is is not to go and watch and i'm totally comfortable just you know soaking up the atmosphere here knowing what's going on up there out of sight, and and i'll just i'll just leave it at that and then he started telling me about the opportunity to go up to witness it he said, whether you go and see it or not the bodies are being burned and this is a really important part of hindu culture it's a really important part of hindu culture it's a really important city to be witnessing this in, and he kept on saying burning is learning he was saying don't want to go, he said don't you want to go up there don't you want to go and witness witness this for yourself this is one time in your life when you're going to be able to see this potentially what's his name at karu i don't like him he said he said you're you're meters away from this happening, and i didn't feel at any point like he got in my head or he was trying to encourage me because of an ulterior motive or anything but he was, well it kick-started in my head it kick-started, um you know chain reaction of of thoughts and, i was i was thinking to myself actually, is it about disrespect or is it because i'm not comfortable seeing that with my own eyes and should i be comfortable witnessing that because.
Adam:
[25:55] That is something that happens in life in religion and it's happening just a few meters away from where i'm standing and i was really trying to dial into the emotions that I was feeling and the way I was processing the situation I was in. Actually is the right thing to do to open up your mind to it and to stare death in the because i am famous for being scared of death and dying and illness and all this sort of stuff, so for me it was almost like i was meeting the maker or facing my fears if you see what i mean and.
Alun:
[26:27] I think maybe there's what i want to weigh in though firstly for me it would have been over at burning is learning, i'd have been gone i'd be shot of him for using that horrible rhyme um look i saw it i went to see it um because, because it was there to see and i'd been learning about it and, and i didn't feel particularly good about seeing it even though i saw it in nepal by happenstance i stumbled across it in nepal and then saw it out in baranasi as part of that but as pilgrimage i was doing, the reality is this is what i feel about it i think that you can go and observe something as a spectator respectfully and and, have this ornithological approach to travel where you're not inserting yourself into it and you're just watching something something that happens it happens regardless of your presence there or not and you can be there as a respectful observer i do believe that there's also an element though.
Alun:
[27:25] Me and you don't think that varanasi is a portal to moksha and that if you get burnt there you'll be, you'll have this salvation from the endless cycle of reincarnation me and you don't think that we don't think that's true so there's like an element where, is there not an element where we're kind of there really in defiance of what the people are doing, to some extent like there's an element to which I don't particularly agree or like cremation as a practice at all oh really yeah, I mean, it's not like a hill I'm crazily fighting on. I just think that burial is probably superior in terms of at least then you, give of your energy to the earth, you know? Like animals can eat you and trees can be fertilized by you and that sort of thing. Obviously, there's a space issue with burial. Cremation has its place, I'm sure. But me and you approach it from such a different perspective. That it's almost like, if your family, if one of your family members was getting, cremated and you thought of it like, I'm so proud of my family member, they've ended their cycle of reincarnation and they're going to Nirvana, to Moksha.
Alun:
[28:50] Would you want someone standing there who's just watching thinking, that's not the case.
Adam:
[28:56] No, no, absolutely not. And that was the thought that was going through my head. Obviously, I was looking at this through my lens. And then this guy, Caro, told me that the families would appreciate it if tourists made the effort to go and look at what was happening and to share in this moment with them. So the problem was, mate, was that I was going into this already on high alert, already thinking that people want my money, already thinking that people are only talking to me so that they can try and sell me something. And if I'd just taken what this guy was saying at face value he was genuinely a very nice very informative guy giving me a lot of information for free yeah and he said he said let's let's go so he he facilitated this experience that i'm now going to tell you about okay which i'm sure has impacted me.
Adam:
[29:42] You know in in ways that i mean i'm just not sure anything else in my life ever has, we walked up the stairs and i just want to try and create this, a vision for you of what it was like it's incredibly busy obviously it's india it's hot it's humid we're on the bank of banks of the ganges everything's flooded everything's wet we climb up this really tiny staircase there are loads of people around, obviously the smell is of the smoke the fire and then we make our way to this rooftop it's nighttime so it's pitch black, and we make it to this rooftop there's stuff all over the floor debris plastic bags you name it i'm like tripping over sticks and trying to follow this guy up people are getting my way and everyone's shouting, there's bodies coming through. And then we get to the top level, the rooftop, and there are probably six or seven fires. One of them is much larger than the others. And each one is where a family is burning a relative. And around the outside, so let's say the rooftop's roughly square.
Adam:
[30:47] Most, the vast majority of the rooftop is covered in sticks and, you know, other bits of debris. As I've mentioned, there's dogs running around and people are standing on the very outside, just around the perimeter. And, you know, they're obviously surrounded or kind of next to the fire where their relative is currently burning, paying their respects and what have you. Now we decided to stand on the opposite side of the staircase and then this is when caro shared a lot of information with me a lot of eyes were on me because i was the only white person there have you resigned.
Alun:
[31:24] Yourself to paying caro some money now at this point.
Adam:
[31:28] I was sure that there was going to be some money somewhere and he had mentioned previously a donation for some firewood for families who can't afford it okay.
