Scammed in Varanasi: India's Spiritual Capital - Part 2
The Varanasi scam continues, as Adam explains the confronting scenes he saw during the funeral ceremony, including the moment he was tricked into donating money. Tune in, as the scam unfolds, and make sure that if you're in Varanasi or anywhere else in India, you question interactions with strangers involving religion and spirituality; there's every chance you'll be expected to hand over money and you may feel like you have no choice.
Please be advised: Listeners may find the content of this episode distressing.
Support the show and access the Lost & Found section. We've got a treat for you this week, as Adam tastes South India's famous chai & filter coffee, as well as explains their brief history and cultural significance.
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TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 - Intro: Last week's recap
00:34 - The Varanasi scam continues
04:22 - Watching a Hindu cremation up close
08:28 - The eternal flame of Shiva
13:19 - Donating money
18:48 - The verdict: How is Adam feeling now?
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Welcome to Tripology
Adam:
[31:39] So because this was, in my opinion, a once in a lifetime experience, the way I was thinking now, this experience was going to transcend anything that I was, I was about to watch, you know, a human body get burned on a fire. It was, my mind wasn't thinking about money or ticket prices or, you know, this wasn't how this was. And and also i thought to myself if caro is earning money out of tourists here he'd already mentioned karma about 50 times you know, there are ways to earn money right he'd already told me he was a high caste he's a brownie he's well educated, yeah so you know it was just one of those things where i thought it's actually my preconceived ideas and previous experiences of india and tourism that are clouding my judgment of how magical and spiritual this one experience could be for me, so that was kind of the frame of mind i was trying to think positive and uh and that sort of stuff so uh, then lo and behold a gentleman who had a shaved head and was wearing a white robe he would have been the family member who started the fire for his relative, either carrie told me either the eldest or the youngest sibling, uh or son or daughter i can't quite remember but um whether it has to be a male, he was carrying between two sticks the hip bone of a woman.
Ritual Bones and Rules
Adam:
[33:00] And the reason for that is that the ashes actually remain on the fire the ashes don't go in the in the ganges but what will happen is, the person who lit the fire within the family will retrieve either a hip bone for a woman or a chest bone for a man and they will bathe that in the Ganges.
Adam:
[33:21] Which is of course the holy river uh i don't know i don't know i don't know if they leave it in the ganges if it just stays there and sort of floats away down the river, um but interestingly the vast majority if not all of the people who are on the roof and who carry the body are men, and caro told me the reason for that is that 190 years ago there was a woman who was watching her husband burn on a fire and she was so distraught and devastated at the fact her husband had died she threw herself on the same fire, committed suicide, and burned alive. So the ruling was that women suffer greatly and they're too emotional, and for that reason they were basically banned or discouraged from ever going up to where the bodies are being burned. I saw two women when I was up there and they were right in the corner singing, a song that they were reading off their phone for the entirety of the time, just looking down.
Adam:
[34:16] So, yeah, it was pretty crazy. And I said to Karu, do you think that we'll be up here long enough to see a body, like a, you know, I don't know what to call it, other than a brand new kind of newly dead person get put on a fire? And he said that about 180 to 220 bodies get burned a day. And it's currently, it should take about three hours to start the fire.
The Burning Body
Adam:
[34:44] What happens is the family have to buy about 80 kilograms of wood for the fire and there are different types of wood that you can buy you know low grade medium grade high grade really expensive sandalwood being the most expensive apparently um, and this is where the donation ties into it he said if you want to leave a donation at the end that will pay for one two three four five kilograms of wood depending on how much you want to give, um so yeah it's about three hours to start the fire it's currently taking about nine hours in total he said to start the fire burn the body and then the next family can either use the same fire if they don't have much money or they will prepare a new fire, with new wood etc etc so these things are just burning round the clock 24 7 365 days a year, and then from across the way this was now just at the entrance of where we'd come in across the other side of the rooftop, he said look over there there's a body that's just arrived he said if you want we can stay here for about 15-20 minutes and you can watch that body get put on, And I was like.
Adam:
[35:44] Yeah, sure, let's do it. And he said, come on, I'll take you over there. We're going to stand next to it. And I was like, is that really? He was like, yeah, don't worry. Honestly, we'll be totally fine. We'll be totally fine. It's respectful. You have to learn. You have to see this if you're here. It's important. And I mean, the smoke, mate, was absolutely incredible. Everyone kept having to turn around and look at the Ganges because the smoke and the flames that were coming off the fires, it was super, super hot. It was even like burning the underside of my feet even though i was on the edge, and in the various fires i could see like feet sticking out and uh when we were on the other side you could see two heads on two of the fires coming out with the shoulders and then as we walked around the.
Alun:
[36:26] Unmasked unclad people burning.
Adam:
[36:30] Oh yeah yeah yeah that's what i mean it was just last night mate it was it's really moving life-changing stuff, something i never thought i'd see in all my life and then caro took me over to where that body was we actually effectively stepped over the body to get to the position that we were going to stand in, there were lots of men uh like undoing undoing the straps or you know the string that goes around that holds the body to the stretcher and the body at this point was covered in, yeah kind of this decorative silver cloth that kind of looks cross between aluminum foil and cloth. Really, really shiny, lovely. And I think had some flowers or something along those lines. And we were like pinned up against the wall just watching this happen. Just to give you an idea of how close I was. The poor gentleman who had passed away was probably in his late 70s, early 80s. And at this point was surrounded by people who had just carried him up the stairs. His head was probably a meter away from my right foot.
Adam:
[37:34] And then a meter away from my left foot, pointed in a slightly different direction, was the fire that he was about to be burned on. And while we were watching, they unwrapped him just completely. So it was just, you know, poor old, elderly gentleman, dead gentleman on a stretcher, wrapped in a white robe. And then the moment came to put him on the fire. And unfortunately i mean it may even made caro wince, the guy who was at the front who was carrying his head had put his foot on the, on the white robe that the guy was wearing, and they couldn't work out why there was a guy taking a video who was trying to tell the guy that his foot was on it and all that sort of stuff and the guy slipped off the thing and his head hit the it just looked so so awful and awkward and.
Adam:
[38:32] Yeah carrie was loud jesus and he like turned around, and looked the other way um but then they they gathered the guy up again and like i said this is happening a meter away maybe even closer to where i where i was standing because there just wasn't the room in between us and fire and then they put him on top, of the fire obviously the flame started coming through then they put more wood on top of him as well they propped his head up with another stick that they kind of wedged into the fire so his head was fully supported um but it is it's essentially, a dead body on a on a fire like a bonfire right yeah, and then someone came over and threw some powder which i think is sandalwood and i think he said ruler which basically gives a nice smell and creates big flames and then someone else came over and put ghee on the gentleman's forehead and carrie told me that was to to create big flames as well, And for the next five minutes we just watched, as the body burned. And then, I mean, neither of us said anything. Enkaru said, come on, let's leave this family here to pay their respects. It's time to go. We went down to the eternal flame, which has apparently been burning for hundreds and hundreds of years. It's what a lot of people use as the light, the eternal fire. That's the fire of Shiva to then start their fires for their family.
Eternal Flame Blessing
Adam:
[39:53] That's kind of down the bottom next to this temple. And in the temple is the family who look after and manage that fire. and apparently it's been in the family for generations. There's one family that managed this fire of Shiva.
Alun:
[40:06] What makes it the fire of Shiva? Do they believe that historical Shiva started it?
Adam:
destroyer?
[40:13] No, I really don't know. I don't know if it's some sort of embodiment of... Because isn't Shiva the
Alun:
[40:18] Yeah.
Adam:
[40:20] Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, of course, if you were there, you would have asked far more interesting, insightful questions. I've got no doubt. But um then carrie said i'd like to bless you with the ashes of the eternal flame so i stood there i put my hands into a prayer position and he just told me to, to think about how i want my life to go my journey and all this sort of stuff and then he got the ashes from the fire put them across my forehead and said a prayer himself, and then he said right now here's here's the moment when you can choose to donate, how much would you like to donate it's not going to go to me it's going to go directly to this family, and which family.
Alun:
[41:02] The family that.
Adam:
[41:03] Owns the eternal flame that look after the fire what happened to spending.
Alun:
[41:07] Money on wood for families that can't afford it.
The Donation Trap
Adam:
[41:10] That this is where they buy it from is what he said now before i came on air i probably should have researched either on reddit or some other website to see whether other people have been spending money this way, but i didn't know at the time i didn't know that this was going to happen in my evening of course yeah and i haven't done any research after the fact because of what i'm about to tell you Yeah. So, Caro told me that if a family arrives with a dead body and they don't have enough money to pay for firewood, it will be donated by this family or, you know, people. It's kind of like a reserve, if you like, that they can take from. He said they need 80 kilograms to start a fire and people when visitors come here whether they're indian or tourists or whatever they might buy the buy a kilo or two kilos or three kilos sometimes five kilos ten kilos of wood, to try and help and you can choose which grade you you give and it's you know it's all about karma and he kept on mentioning karma and i felt i felt like i was being guilt tripped into it from a certain angle but when when you've just seen something like eyewitnessed yeah well that's all of the emotions, you know there's no but that's kind of very, but i mean if this guy is making money out of tourists this way somehow, well he is then adam almost no no but.
Alun:
[42:27] But yeah it's difficult though because it's obviously a very profound experience for you and i think that that notwithstanding i think um.
Adam:
[42:39] That's what i was focus that's what i was focusing on yes the money was something completely separate i didn't see it as what i wanted to believe in that moment because of what i'd seen and what i just witnessed and the emotions i was feeling and even sort of feeling, yeah yeah not that you know not in that moment like i'd overcome the fear of death but when you when you watch something so intently that is happening so close to you that almost feels like it's been normalized to the point where you're desensitized to it.
Alun:
[43:07] Yeah. I mean, it's incredibly visceral. Like there's a lot to talk about and touch on there and maybe more than we have time for. Because I think that partly it's like, I want to, know about how that made you feel seeing that, whether you think that, did you think of it as being very spiritual and tender and a good way for them to see their family off? Or did it come across as quite brutal and undignified and voyeuristic. So I want to know that. But then I also, you know, the reality of the situation is the optics of that, of you having like a very, very visceral experience and then being like blessed with the ashes and then asked for money. Those optics happen frequently all over india where someone will give someone, a very visceral spiritual experience and then turn it into something where, they you essentially can't say no to spending money at that point because you've like engaged in this spiritual act and then you've like received this blessing, and then what you're gonna say like do you know i mean He basically is kind of a done deal. And I do find that quite.
Adam:
[44:33] I think it's a shame really well so this so what we'll do is i'll finish the episode telling you the end of the story and then in the patreon section we can talk about how it made me feel and any sort of assumptions we might have because the assumption is, that this guy isn't genuine right that's what we're assuming.
Alun:
[44:49] Because because i think that your most valuable asset to this whole equation is your money and money makes this operation run so i think.
Adam:
[44:58] It's like it's.
Alun:
[44:59] Very possible that in reality you know they just wanted some money.
Adam:
[45:03] To donate for.
Alun:
[45:04] The wood i'm not saying that there's a lie but it's like there's certainly um, like this weird pressure situation where ultimately you're there observing this thing as a commodity who can then finance the thing.
Adam:
[45:22] Yeah yeah no no i totally agree so the line i took and i was trying my best to block out all of the noise when i was making a decision i was trying not to have my judgment clouded by what i'd just seen what the the position i was in the guy that was talking to me, and i thought just do, just do what feels right for you in this moment, whatever that might be if that's walk away because you know you're reading people's energy and and there's a lot.
Alun:
[45:49] Of i don't think you can walk away at that point.
Adam:
[45:51] But you know it was those were the options i was just describing the options i had right, the fact that i was giving the money to someone i hadn't spoken to or seen that apparently was absolutely no connection to the guy that i'd been talking to, he said don't don't give any money to me like if you want to give me a tip at the end you can but that's not what this is about this is a donation for families who can't afford the wood, So, you know, I was trying to not have those preconceived ideas, all these different experiences. I've been in India a long time. Like this is something that happens on a daily basis. So, you know, I'm well aware that this goes on. And just how profound the experience I've been through was, surely was having an impact on my decision making.
Adam:
[46:38] Now given you know the grade of the wood talks the the number of kilograms i thought that three kilograms was symbolic, and it would go some way to helping a family who couldn't afford the wood, so i handed over to this elderly gentleman probably again in his 70s just a you know an indian uncle wearing a little little vest and some shorts he was minding his own business was not really taking any notice of me, caro kind of teed up the transaction if we can call it that i uh handed over four and a half thousand rupees now that will pay for three kilograms of medium grade wood is what caro told me.
Alun:
[47:20] How much is that in us dollars.
Adam:
[47:22] It's about 35 quid something like that 32, 35 quid.
Alun:
[47:27] Wow.
Adam:
[47:31] And you'll find this next bit interesting because there was a moment, the moment I handed over the money, which was, you know, folded notes. So the guy couldn't immediately see how much I was giving.
Adam:
[47:45] He almost looked like he didn't know why I was handing him the money. And then when he looked at me, he unfolded the money. And it was a look of, if I'm just to read body language and expressions, genuine surprise, a little bit of confusion, and then almost being overwhelmed with sort of joy in a way. Really, really grateful. A lot of gratitude. and he looked at me then looked at karu then looked back at me and he said i hope you enjoy your journey have a long and happy life thank you, and then i hesitated for a while because i didn't know what came next if there was something else that i had to do or and then karu said something to him, in hindi so i didn't understand obviously and then he said to me come on come on let's go So, you know, he's just, you know, you've given him the money and we can kind of move on. And then when we were walking out, he said, yeah, yeah, it's best to just give them the money and then walk away. What I told him in Hindi was, don't worry, that's all he's able to give.
Adam:
[49:02] And immediately, you know, I was kind of, my ears pricked up and I was like, I've just handed the guy four and a half thousand rupees. And he didn't look like he knew what was going on. And now you've told him that I'm only giving him that because I can't afford to give any more. And my head started spinning. I was just thinking, what has just happened?
Adam:
[49:26] I don't know if something's been lost in translation. you know i was just trying to do the right thing from the right place believe everything that he was saying was true so i didn't really know what happened and then we walked out and, that's when we started talking about what i was doing next where i was going he started mentioning a tip again and i was very open and honest and i said i asked you at the beginning to be really clear and you said there was no money involved, so i'm not going to tip you but i really appreciate the experience you've given me you've you've enabled me to have this memorable experience i'll remember this for the rest of my life and i really really appreciate it thank you for your time, and then he started asking me me whether i smoked and he was going to go and buy a cigarette and all this sort of stuff i said no i'm going back to my hotel thank you so much, and I just walked away.
Alun:
[50:13] Weird. Yes, there's a lot to uncover there. And we're in a world where spirituality, just as all else, is increasingly commodified. And we as travelers are a commodity. You mentioned that your time in Varanasi has been characterized by people being somewhat more aggressive with you and asking you for things. And that's because Varanasi is a popular place to go for travelers to seek spirituality let's continue that discussion in the patreon but for everyone watching we'll see you all next week, there we are adam an old scam jacking an old firewood switcheroo one two right
Alun:
[50:59] to the abdomen there how are you feeling now.
Processing the Scam
Adam:
[51:03] Uh i mean it's it's been it's been a while it's been a few days i've had enough time to digest it and process it and how do I feel I mean, The way I feel is that my experience in isolation, you know, my very subjective experience about that whole thing, still moved me in a way that I don't think I've ever been moved. So what I've tried to do is detach the fact I was scammed out of four and a half thousand rupees, which is about 35 quid, something like that. I've tried to detach that and just think about the things I saw and the families i spoke to and hopefully the information that i was told was true because it is quite astonishing and and not think of not.
Alun:
[51:53] The information not about the firewood you mean.
Adam:
[51:55] About the cremation yeah yeah yeah.
Alun:
[51:58] You're not still clinging on to maybe it was true maybe the firewood was ever so.
Adam:
[52:02] Expensive well i mean to be completely honest with you uh even though this is a well-known scam i was kind of leaving the door open a little bit for some of the money to trickle down. So the way I've processed it is this, right? Obviously, it's one of the most tragic existences you can think of. It is a group of people making money out of tourists and using a family who have lost a family member, who are burning them, you know, to try and help them achieve moksha and reach nirvana, break this reincarnation cycle. And people are benefiting from that in the most sinister way, because I do think that there is a chance that they could come together and create some sort of business. Obviously, it would be commercial and touristy and pretty dark, but it would at least be above board. The way that this is going, I think, is pretty tragic. And whether it's whether my money's gone to someone who is genuinely poor and needs it or.
Adam:
[53:03] Is you know some swindler who i mean is quite frankly going to hell whether they like it or not, either way they need that money more than i do so that's kind of how i'm how i'm viewing it i'm trying not to view it as a ticket price for what i saw because i don't think that's what it is having said that, if i hadn't have struck up conversation with that guy and believed him to be genuine, i wouldn't have gone up onto that platform and seen the burning bodies so without him i wouldn't have done what i did i wouldn't have felt what i felt and he kind of facilitated that experience for me whether i like it or not, so do you kind of get what i'm saying there i mean with if he wasn't there yes i'd have four and a half thousand rupees in my wallet but i also wouldn't have seen the most powerful thing i've ever seen with my own eyes.
Alun:
[53:56] Sure but of course then everything that he said calls into question about whether, you know i'm not sure what the situation is for the families there or whether they do want tourists looking i just don't know but it's interesting that that guy went on and on about karma so much in it because, karma if he's to be believed if karma is a real thing like he suggested it was he's up for a real smiting in a from the universe.
Adam:
[54:21] Yeah i mean if we're assuming that swindling tourists out of money is uh something you can go to hell for which we imagine it is because it doesn't feel right doesn't feel good.
Alun:
[54:30] Yeah what was interesting about that whole thing it's difficult when your friend goes through something because i think you kind of there's this weird thing when you get scammed as you feel like personally, like there's this funny feeling where does it what does it say that you didn't figure it out i had that when i was scammed in in china the a variation on the tea house scam with a big, chinese guy you know i went through this thing where i was like you know what does it say about me that i got scammed and i didn't have my wits about me to, to figure it out and i know that when i told you you kind of felt a little bit about that but i think it doesn't, doesn't say anything because they're very well designed these scams to to pull on people's heartstrings and get them.
Adam:
[55:16] They are they are and i do think probably on balance if you look across the course of your life it's maybe better to go through life believing the best in people and expecting people to be telling the truth and be genuine, than sometimes especially in places like india and southeast asia and i imagine south america's exactly the same you've got your guard up all the time and you think that everyone's trying to scam you and every price is inflated and I mean maybe more often than not that is true but, if you can try and find a balance somewhere, then I think overall your travel experience will be much better.
Adam:
[55:50] But yeah, it was a pretty tough pill to swallow, mate.
Old Scam, Old Guidebooks
Alun:
[55:52] It's obviously very common because I told my housemate, who is a traveller who's been travelling for a long time, travelling before the internet using Lonely Planet guides, and he said that the exact same thing happened to him when he was in India in the 80s, maybe the 90s, late 80s, early 90s, you know, and he went back to his hostel, looked in his Lonely Planet guidebook and written there in the list of things to be aware of in Varanasi was the Firewood scam.
Adam:
[56:22] Yeah I mean and this episode is not you know let's all feel sorry for Adam who didn't realize he was getting scammed and perpetuated one of the most well-known scams in Varanasi. What it is is hopefully us shouting from the rooftops to make sure that anyone hears that who hears this doesn't get scammed as well. You know just go in there knowing that this is a possibility and my advice would probably be, avoid the situation in its entirety because the chances are if you do allow that sort of curiosity or even its genuine interest you just want to learn about what it is that's going on because it is it's amazing to witness it really is um, if then someone asks you for money the chances are you will give them it i think.
Scam Stories Wanted
Alun:
[57:06] Yeah okay well it's a public service announcement isn't it where we're telling people to be careful always be mindful a little bit of housekeeping adam before we go over to the lovely sexy patreon section i just want to say we have a website tripologypodcast.com on that website is a contact form i want these two people to email us this week, people who have been scammed whilst traveling please write in tell us your scams you can also go to the tales of a trip page and record a story of your scam. Tell us about a time you've been scammed. Please, if you've got a scam story, write to us or record us a message. Or the second type of people I want to respond, if you... Are a scammer particularly if you're one of the people who perpetrates the firewood scam in Varanasi or maybe you do that thing where you spill bird poo on people and then take their wallet while they're looking down write to us anonymously we want to hear your side of the story, yeah to forgive people give.
Adam:
[58:10] People an equal playing.
Alun:
[58:11] Field a level playing.
Adam:
[58:12] Field that's great.
Alun:
[58:14] I'd like to hear from a scammer like a repentant scammer who's like you know this is my thing I I had mouths to feed, and I used to steal people's wallets on the subway, tell them, look over there, there's a monster,
Alun:
[58:28] and then take something out of their pocket. That sort of thing.
Could You Pay to Watch?
Adam:
[58:30] Just before we do dive over into the Patreon, I realise this is going to be quite a long episode now, but, is there a price that you would pay as a tourist to see what it is I saw, if it was a ticket price, and there was no scam, it was no donation to Firewood, it was just supporting the operation and maybe a local business said it's x amount if you want to go up to the top platform and you can just stand next to these families because i spoke to some of the families as well and you know they were smiling and chatting to me and stuff i they didn't seem like they had a problem even though you know coming from a western culture, you naturally your default would be well hang on this is a little bit disrespectful because i'm doing it kind of voyeuristically uh, is there a price that you would pay or do you think that those two things can't exist on the same spectrum?
Alun:
[59:15] No, I think they can't exist on the spectrum. I wouldn't have paid anything. And indeed, I didn't pay anything because I thought, obviously, it's like, I think as soon as someone comes up to you, and says can I show you this thing the alarm bells are ringing straight away for me like you know just a couple of hours from Varanasi when I was in Bodh Gaya I went to the temple of the Bodhi tree where Buddha achieved enlightenment, and a guy came up to me and he said I'm going to show you the Bodhi tree and don't worry don't worry no no money like I just want to show you, I just knew like that's not how it.
Adam:
[59:53] Works yeah no i mean obviously i've been in situations like that loads of times as well and i did say to this guy um caru that i wasn't going to pay him any money and if there was any money involved and i wasn't interested uh but he, i mean he just said said all the right things didn't he so uh, yeah yeah i certainly think if if the person that you're talking to or the person who approaches you, has that kind of air about them and almost is aggressively saying no no no there's no money involved just you know get in the back of my rickshaw and i'll take you there for free or even something.
Alun:
[1:00:27] Take take your.
Adam:
[1:00:27] Top off relax um, anyway anyway guys just you know take good care please enjoy every moment but just have your guard up sometimes and if it doesn't feel right it probably isn't.
Alun:
[1:00:42] That's great advice if it doesn't feel right probably isn't speaking of not feeling right why not spend a little bit of money over.
Adam:
[1:00:48] On patreon.
Alun:
story.
[1:00:49] You can trust us head over there spend your cash it's encrypted when you put your credit card details into patreon that means it's safe uh what are you telling us over on patreon adam what's your
Adam:
[1:00:58] Uh it's when i was in a shop in varanasi actually i went to have a look at some saris and some fabrics and i was kind of looped into an interview uh, on camera that left a young girl feeling very disappointed so if you want to hear the full story get over to there now we look forward to seeing you.
Alun:
[1:01:16] We'll see you there.
Adam:
[1:01:18] Bye.
